Succession planning is vital yet delicate for family businesses, impacting relationships and emotions alongside strategy. Exploring the intricacies of succession planning in family businesses, Beyond Succession delves into the sensitive balance between family dynamics and strategic decision-making.
In this episode, Mike Mack of X5 Management sits down with host and Bennett Jones Partner, Leah Tolton, to explore how succession dynamics create ripples across family and business relationships, influencing the enterprise's trajectory. We dive into the complex and nuanced interplay between succession planning, family ties, emotions and objectives.
Discover how thoughtful transitions and targeted coaching can both maximize leadership potential and foster family unity through organizational change.
Transcript
Mike Mack: [00:00:00] You know, the old saying of, you know, communicate. Your desired outcomes, if you will, for the future, it needs to be a collaborative conversation. So let's say there's mom and dad involved and there's two or three children involved that are adult children that ideally have been involved in the business for some period of time and have relative roles that they played up to that point.
Literally sitting around the table and having that very open conversation about. The future in a lot of cases, maybe having some outside support as well to facilitate that conversation becomes powerful and maybe start that way sooner than you think you need to.
Leah Tolton: [00:00:41] Welcome to Beyond Succession, a podcast series within the Bennett Jones Business Law Talks podcast that discusses topics around navigating the complexities of the family enterprise. I'm Leah Tolton, partner at Bennett Jones LLP, and I'm a family enterprise and corporate lawyer, passionate about helping family. Enterprise Businesses, navigate the complexities of governance, succession, and growth.
Before we begin this podcast. Please note that anything said or discussed on this podcast does not constitute legal advice. Always seek proper advice from your legal advisor as every situation is different and outcomes can vary. Today we dive headfirst into a topic as delicate as it is vital.
Management succession planning and its impact on relationships within the family enterprise. Succession planning is not just a functional transition, but a complex interplay of relationships, emotions, and strategic objectives. Joining me today is Mike Mack, president and founder of X5 Management, a consulting firm that helps businesses maximize, their team's potential with leading edge training programs and tailored executive and leadership coaching.
Throughout this episode, we will explore how the dynamics of succession planning can create ripple effects, not only across family relationships, but also business team relationships. Moreover, we'll delve into how these changes in relationships can in turn impact strategic planning for the business.
Influencing its trajectory and future success.
Mike, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast this afternoon. Absolute pleasure. Now I know that you do a lot of work in your business with family owned businesses, family owned enterprises. And so you've got a wealth of experience to share with us, and I wonder if we could start the sharing of your wisdom with this question.
How can management succession planning impact family relationships within a family business?
Mike Mack: [00:03:05] Well, as you likely know, Leah, uh, it's a really, really slippery slope sometimes as well. And I think you, you have to look at the foundation almost of the. The family dynamics and the history of that and the evolution of the business, how long the business has operated as well.
So I think, you know, if you look at, particularly if there's siblings involved in the succession as well, let's say father and mother own the company and there's two sons and a, and a daughter involved as well, it kind of depends on the dynamics of that in a lot of cases and having children of my own sometimes, you could argue the relationships vary from time to time in their life and evolution.
So that's something I've really noticed over, over time where the history of the family dynamics and the more that you work closely with that business, that starts to unfold. Um, in a perfect world where we get involved, you, you want to understand that in advance to get everybody to align and head in the same direction beforehand.
But, but it can be a super challenge as well. We can peel things back that occurred. ten years ago that didn't seem like a significant matter at the time, but, but in reality, it leads to a really concerning factor when it comes to the business as well.
Leah Tolton: [00:04:14] So is it fair to say then that you see things like Roles that people have played in the family, like the golden child or the black sheep or things like that, that those play into, uh, business environments and in decisions that are made in respective management in the business.
Mike Mack: [00:04:31] Sadly, very true. I mean, if let's use an example, let's say it's a father and he's into sports or he's into music as an example. And, you know, plays instruments or otherwise, if one of the children of the family, if you will, are involved in that, have that common link. Sometimes that can bring a closer connection to them, and then that the odd person out, if you will, sometimes can be that one that may have the most capability and potential for future succession, yet doesn't have the same strong connection with with the parents or the mother or the father, as the case may be.
Seems simple, but the dynamics of that can really unravel. Over time when it comes to family succession, specifically the business blind as well.
Leah Tolton: [00:05:13] So that sounds even a little bit different than a situation where someone's got a role that they've traditionally played or a way that they have been seen or things that are attributed to them because of things that have happened in the past.
That sounds even like a circumstance where the person who's making the selection of the next leader tends to pick someone like them.
Mike Mack: [00:05:33] A hundred percent. Like them and also someone that they have the greatest connection with. They have a tighter relationship as well. But what's interesting and what I've learned over time is that rarely has anything to do with skills and attributes that are conducive to leading an organization in the future.
So, gotta really remove the blinders sometimes and if you, you know, I always use the analogy, if you looked at a public corporation and we're going to appoint a future president or CEO, what would that process be? The relationship from 10 years ago doesn't always play the factor versus who is... the best tool to prepare to take on that role.
And the founders more times than not, it's difficult for them to kind of remove those blinders simply because the relationship is so strong and arguably in some cases strong with. The individual that's not the most capable for the future. Mm hmm.
Leah Tolton: [00:06:25] So, I understand that it really is a significant challenge for family enterprises who are transitioning from the phase where mom and dad or the parents are the ones who are the key decision makers for them to transition to a situation where maybe their kids are the ones who are going to become the decision makers.
How can parents or the First generation of owners set aside a plan or put together a strategy to develop that next generation in order that they're ready to become the leaders when the time comes.
Mike Mack: [00:06:59] Well that's a big, big conversation and it takes a while to kind of peel that back. I think it was, you know, the old saying of, you know, communicate your desired outcomes, if you will, for the future.
It needs to be a collaborative conversation. So let's say there's. There's mom and dad involved, and there's two or three children involved that are adult children that ideally have been involved in the business for some period of time and have relative roles that they played up to that point, but literally sitting around the table and having that very open conversation about the future, in a lot of cases, maybe having some outside support as well to facilitate that conversation becomes powerful.
Be it something we do professionally or in your relative profession as well, Leah, just having that independent to ask. I won't even say the tough questions, but just have some futuristic questions that need to unfold and, and maybe start that way sooner than you think you need to. If it's five years out, start talking about it today because that conversation to sort of, maybe there's some skill development needs to occur to bring somebody up to the next level.
So let's start to talk about that and, hey, what do we think the future reality looks like for this organization in five years as we start to step away from the organization? Have a safe conversation now before we run into a crisis situation as well. Sadly, most organizations don't do that. More times than not, they wait until there's an event, be it a health event or a divorce or whatever the situation may be that forces a play versus it being more long term strategic to preserve the future well being of the organization.
Mm hmm.
Leah Tolton: [00:08:34] You know, we're talking a little bit about leadership development and the fact that Precipitating events happen, you know, surprises occur, things, things come up that we did not see coming. What are some common challenges that families face when navigating management succession plan? We can, we've named some of them, but are there some others that we haven't talked about?
Mike Mack: [00:08:51] ell, for sure. I, obviously, Not being prepared, not being open to the conversation for the future. You know, the future reality, if you will. That's a line that I like to use a lot. The other aspect is, strategically, one of the things that we do often, we'll do a simple discovery conversation. So let's say there's...
There's five people involved and we'll just use simple of example of founders being husband and wife, fathers, father, uh, mother as an example. And then there's two or three children involved in the business. One of the, one of the things that we often do, we'll do a discovery for a bit of a future lay of the land.
But we always want to do that independently. So that challenge, if it doesn't occur and we get together and yeah, yeah, what, what he said, what she said. Versus the reality might be a little bit different. Oh, no, we're going to totally open an office in Grand Prairie. Oh, we're going to sell that division off in a minute.
And, uh, no, I'm going to deselect the CFO because I'm going to hire somebody that I, that I like as an example. So having those tough conversations on the table, you know, identifying, you know, the future reality three years out, five years out, whatever the case may be. What are the current concerns that need to be addressed at the table?
It doesn't take long to identify those concerns when you do that independently. We might come up with five or seven concerns as an example. But then the other lane is, what are some of the potential opportunities for the future as well? To get excited about the future. There could be the son or daughter that's part of the succession that might have some crazy ideas, at least from the founder's perspective, but arguably may be great opportunities for the future.
So not having that conversation. The other aspect is not bringing in outside support. Not, not to sell our services or yours as an example. But those leaders that, and, and organizations that take advantage of some outside perspective to facilitate healthy conversations is incredibly important. We, we get caught in a box sometimes.
Okay, here's the plan. It's obvious because there's only six people around the table or five. That doesn't necessarily mean they're the right selection either or. They're not prepared, so more times than not, just the conversation. The other aspect is, we have a strained relationship with something that occurred, as I alluded to earlier.
We need to repair that first. We need to talk about that first. Something that I reference often is, you know, our clients, particularly in the realm of family business, if you will, need to protect the house. But in most cases, arguably there's two houses. There's the business house, if you will, and then there's the family house.
Right. That, hey, are we going to get along and go to the family picnic this summer? Are we not going to communicate anymore because we ticked each other off because we're not happy with the direction of the organization? So, getting all those... matters on the table are just critically important beforehand.
The other aspect is being super open minded. You know, I, I'm a full, you know, my philosophy relative to collaboration. Think, win, win. Right. When, when we enter an organization to support them, for example, we're here to serve the best interests of the organization. What we're trying to instill is everybody around the table thinks the same way.
Arguably you think, well of course they do. They don't always do that if they realize that that could impact their future reality. If they don't get the seat they want at the table, etc. So getting those really difficult conversations on the table, and it may take months to Can we resolve them and can we come up with a feasible solution?
I have many examples that we're dealing with and fortunately most of them are heading in the right direction, but it has been a lot of work and a lot of, I'll say collaboration, but in some cases compromise, accommodating a little bit at the same time. How do we protect the business unit, but how do we have that healthy conversation at the same time?
Healthy to head forward, but that doesn't mean there's not going to be conflict for certain. Some people are afraid of conflict, so your comment earlier about the challenges. Nope, don't want to talk about it. So a year goes by and we still haven't really talked about the main issue, the elephant in the room, if you will.
Leah Tolton: [00:12:48] I'm interested in the concept that this takes time. I, I think that many people think about a leadership transition as a point in time. They think about a retirement, they think about a succession, they think about a transition as an event. And once the event takes place, then we move on to the next set of facts, but really what I'm hearing you describe here is, uh, an investment of time and effort in preparation.
I'm hearing you describe an investment of time and effort in communication and in Finding some way for the people who are the stakeholders to reach some agreement. So, really then, I think what we're talking about is more of a process than an event.
Mike Mack: [00:13:35] Very much so. You're bang on. And I think... Again, having outside support in many cases, because great founders don't have the process.
They don't go, oh, I know how to do this, on the assumption they haven't done it before. You know, it wasn't handed down from another generation, if you will. So, so that process is really powerful, and there's many ways you can look at it, but you gotta have, you gotta have a starting point. So maybe there's a point in time, I reference often about, you know, here's the current reality, and then here's the future reality.
Well, let's use that as five years out, for example. Well, I may not retire in five years, but what if I did? You almost need to start that conversation now. Maybe it's seven years, maybe it's four years. But prepare to that conversation. Do we have the right people on the bus, if you will, to have those conversations?
So again, bringing that outside framework and there's lots of great organizations in in our city and our province as well that can support that. But being willing to do that, you know, the, the quick advice that I would give a friend, a family friend, or otherwise. You know, don't do it all by yourself. Seek people that have been there, done that.
Even in some cases, if you, you have a colleague in a group of, be it tech or whatever association you're involved in, if you talk to someone else that's been there, done that, more times than not. They've followed a process and it may seem tedious at times but led to a more desired outcome as to where they wanted to go rather than getting to where they never wanted to get to because they didn't prepare for it more than anything, right?
And there's, there's no real official timeline on that. You know, I know in conversations now it's sort of a moving target. Arguably in some cases they start too late. Well, we're doing that in the next 18 months. In theory, that sounds great, but there's not enough time even to prepare the people and the development of leadership and And the skill sets required to run a sizable family business, for example, understanding the financial matters and the business savvy of just that, how they're connected in the community, etc.
All of those factors that need to be put on the table for conversation and healthy, healthy conversation at that.
Leah Tolton: [00:15:40] So let's talk about. One part or one process one component of this entire big picture that we're putting together here Which is the success of the family enterprise that involves both the family house and the business house Let's take that down to one component of it Which is development of your next generation of leaders whether they be family members or whether they be people who are not family members What kinds of things?
Should families be considering investing in when they're considering what those leaders will need to do in the future? What kinds of things do the leaders of the future need to know?
Mike Mack: [00:16:14] Well, you know our based on what we do professionally at x5 I mean as an example obviously getting involved not only in some strategic guidance along the way But in more times than not, when executive coaching comes into play, we do a lot of that simply because you're in, you're, you're coaching and supporting the individuals.
So one of the, one of the items that I personally take pride in is, you know, the organization needs to trust what we do, but each individual around the table does as well. Now the reality, not every organization may have the same support. Maybe you'll have several executive coaches, for example, if that's the case.
But the ability... To tailor that development and growth of each individual and have them believe in it and trust in it is important. We use a very simple Venn diagram very quickly, if you visualize those three circles, focus, will, capability. Well, we need to get everybody focused in the same direction.
What does the future look like at the organization, say five years out? What's the willingness of everybody around the table? And this means a lot of things. Well, for example, the founder, are they willing to give up control over time? And, and they can do that in, Stages, if you will. So, hey, I'll, I'll become the CEO and you'll become the president and eventually I'll become the chair, et cetera, that could be the evolution.
So we pull off items off the, the job description, if you will, the roles and responsibilities that go with that succession. So the willingness to be able to do that, it's one thing to say, sure, I'd love to be the president or the CEO, but with that comes tremendous responsibility as well. And then on that third circle, if you will, is around capabilities.
So, the magic that, that I've observed over time is that if the individual identifies areas that they're struggling in and they're willing to elevate their capabilities, if you will, again, that could be as simple as depends on their relative background and education and experience. That could be networking and being involved with senior executives as well and their relative peers.
Or maybe there's some formal education that's required. You know, that could be a degree. Depends on the case where that family is evolved to. A lot of great leaders out there aren't highly educated from a, a university perspective, but that doesn't mean they're highly, not highly experienced as well. The size of the organization and complexity, a lot of those, uh, executives may look at an ICD, uh, program as an example.
Uh, more complexities in corporate governance and so on. So those are the items that everybody needs to be willing participants to sit around the table and know that they all have to evolve, be willing to make the next step, give up control, to take on responsibilities, but also elevate their own specific capabilities for the future as well.
Business is complicated, it's not easy, just, you know, press the easy button and everything is great. How do we deal with events that occur out there, COVID, whatever the case may be in the past. You need to prepare that. And the more complex and sizable the organization, it's critically important. But arguably too, those small to medium sized enterprises, the importance is there.
You either have a business or you don't. If you don't run it forward into the future, you could run it into the ground, which is not the intent.
Leah Tolton: [00:19:27] You've also mentioned in this conversation the need to consult with stakeholders who are affected. And I was interested in your, your suggestion or your comment that you meet with people individually to get their input.
So we've now moved to the point where we're talking about A successor who's been identified and a plan having been identified for that successor. How do we get those other people to buy in? You know, you've talked about interviewing them, you've talked about talking to them. How, how do we get them on board?
How do they stay on board?
Mike Mack: [00:19:59] Well it's, again, we go back to the process. It's a process. So from a consultative perspective, we're using some of my coaching background as an example. More times than not, there's a, there's an element of commonalities or items that we all fundamentally agree on. So we always want to make those.
Stick, if you will. So I like to reference those as guiding principles. We might have those four out of seven points that we fundamentally agree on. Right? Uh, maybe we have a CFO who could be a shareholder or not, but that, that individual is key around the table to make sure that we're heading in the right direction, protecting the house financially as well.
But, everybody's really has to be able to commit to a plan. So, we, we use some models in terms of, You know, what are you willing to commit to? Leah as an example, and Ron, and Mike, and Pete, et cetera. So, couple items just for perspective on commitment. When there's commitment, there's clarity. So there needs to be clarity, not just, sure, I'll do that.
What does that look like exactly, and when are you doing it, and how are you going to do it? So there's accountability included in that. Exactly, and that's the next layer of that after, is that there's that accountability. So we, if you don't do what you said you're going to do in the next quarter, for example, over the next number of years, We need to be in a position to hold you accountable, and that's anybody around the table, be it the founder or that successor, if you will, as well, to make sure that it's there.
So creating a safe environment to be able to do that, not making it personal, ideally, not taking it personally, ideally, as well, at the same time. Start with the business components. We're protecting that house, obviously. as a, as a key aspect.
Leah Tolton: [00:21:36] You've mentioned a couple of times in your comments that there are two houses being the family house and the business house.
How can a family business balance the interests of both the family and the business during this process? We've talked a bit about processes and preparation. Are there other things that they can do in order to balance those interests?
Mike Mack: [00:21:55] There's, there's many things and I go back to what we started at the outset of the podcast today is just relative to the relationship dynamics.
Sometimes we. Strategically have to work on repairing those. And it's fascinating from my vantage point of what I get to do. And while there's stress and challenge that goes with that, there's a lot of joy and gratification that comes with it because if you can peel back the onion sometimes and repair something that arguably wasn't that big of a deal back in the day, but you can mend that and here's a concept as an example, care and candor.
Well, let's say there's two individuals, we'll say a, a daughter and a son. Well, I care about Sally and I care a little bit less about John, just because of the relationship. But the ability to be candid on both sides, to be able to do that, so emotional intelligence comes to play and how do we serve the greater good of the organization at the same time.
So that family piece. You know, a lot of times there can be some family counseling support, and I say family counseling just as in repairing some items that occurred. Hopefully they socialize together, they break bread together if you will, ideally, but that's not always the case. Mm hmm. Like, and you worry about it, is that, wow, if there's an event that occurs and the founders aren't here, somebody's going to blow up this business and they're going to go in a direction that they want to, particularly if they...
They have legal freedom to do that, if you will, relative, that's where you come in. Right. So, so it's a difficult one, is that, you know, asking what we're willing to do. Are we willing to protect the family at the same time? You could argue most people are. Some people don't know how to do that, either. That where it's difficult.
Well, yeah, back in 89, I, I had that event with my father and it really upset me and I'm not sure I can ever get over it. So it's, it's super important. So somebody has to be the bigger person as well. And again, I reiterate the importance of outside support. Right. And that could be you, me, hundreds of other professionals out there in our, you know, in the community, if you will, that can support it.
So take advantage of it and leave nothing to chance. That's something that's, that I'm really passionate about where when we get together to go, yeah, there's an issue. And I'm, I'm living examples of that currently in our, in our business realities where we see that and it's work, it's work in progress.
Now, the good news is it's heading in a favorable direction, but how do we sustain that and ideally improve it and let that. Take care of itself over time where they They can get along around the table or around the dinner table or the board table, if you will, as well. It's difficult sometimes.
Leah Tolton: [00:24:30] So what are some best practices for communication and decision making during this planning process for your succession of your leader?
What's, what are some things that you would recommend or that you've seen? Be successful.
Mike Mack: [00:24:44] So there's a few items, and again I'll just reiterate the discovery aspect that we talked about earlier. And there's many different discovery methods and tools that are out there. But if we can identify independently what everyone's future, what they vision, what that may look like, if you will, in three to five years out, as an example.
More times than not, there is some commonality, so always ensure that we, we protect that commonality and then we can identify how do we peel back some of the differences as well.
Going to independent support again, I just reiterate that again, be it your legal counsel making sure all the, the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed in terms of structure and process.
But having that ongoing dialogue, we use a lot of tools, so one, one tool, an example that we spend a lot of time with with senior leaders, it's called work of leaders, really has three elements in a nutshell, vision, alignment, and execution. Statistically, we spend all of our time on alignment, because you can say, yeah, I agree with the vision, we're gonna, we're gonna make it look like this over the next 10 years.
But that alignment, much like living in our beautiful city of Edmonton, you need to align your, your wheels and your vehicle all the time, more than twice a year, sometimes around here. So that's an important conversation. So a couple items I'll give you on tips on that relative to alignment, is that generally speaking, there's a lack of engaging perspectives.
So be willing to listen to the other person as well. That's super important. We may not fully agree, but if I want to collaborate with you, Leah, as an example, and you're, you're my sister, as an example, in the family business, we need to exchange perspective. We need to be receptive to what other people are saying at the same time.
And then the other item that comes up, which echoes to what you and I have been talking about today, To seek counsel. If, if we're at an impasse on something, we'll seek counsel from outside support and get guidance from that. What serves the best interest of the organization as well. So, having the patience to be able to do that is super, super important.
Leah Tolton: [00:26:44] Is there a role here to be played by that outside counsel, whoever that is? Sure. Is there a role for that person to play in perhaps feeding back those positions, those perspectives in a neutral way? You know, you've talked about a situation where you and I might be dealing with each other directly as siblings, and we've talked how family dynamics can get in the way there and it can be really hard to move past those patterns.
Can the advisor help there with some neutral? framing of what the issue is, and maybe take out those emotional hooks.
Mike Mack: [00:27:14] Indeed, they can, and there needs to be relative skill associated with that. Typically family business, be it working with legal counsel, or their accounting professionals, or consultants, or succession planning experts, or executive coaches, consultants, whatever that may be.
You know, a line that I use often is, is influence versus persuasion. And the reality is that, you know, my philosophy, at least relative to influence, is I want to influence people to do what I believe deep down they know they should do in the first place. That's the goal. And there's, there's real art to be able to do that.
It doesn't always work, but the hard and heavy fist doesn't work very often either as well. So each individual around the table needs to be influenced that we're heading in the same direction. Some are more willing participants for sure. Some are a bit more resistant to that because they may be part of the problem, or hey, I gotta do a lot of work to elevate my contribution at the organization because I'm not at a level that I want to be.
But in hindsight, they probably should have started that journey 10 years ago so they were more prepared for that, for that opportunity. So without question, that outside support, more times than not, is of great value and hopefully is a catalyst for future success. But I think there's ongoing maintenance that needs to occur, and that's why, depending upon the complexity of that organization, you're going to have several professionals that you're going to work with, which is great.
And hopefully we're all there around the table to serve the best interests of the organization. From my vantage point, if someone has a legal or a tax question, definitely not my expertise, but I might be a trusted advisor, well, I suggest you reach out to your legal counsel or talk to my dear friend Leah Tolton, whatever the case may be.
But to get that perspective as well is important rather than no, I don't think this will be a problem. Well, maybe we should double check that just to make sure it won't. You know, rear its ugly head in five years when we're not prepared for that as well. Right.
Leah Tolton: [00:29:14] What role should non family members play in this process when we're talking about taking over leadership of the family enterprise?
Not everyone in the, in the organization is a family member. Yeah. What, what should they have to say?
Mike Mack: [00:29:27] I know I've referenced this before, it's tricky because I could have seen that in action as well. Be it their senior executives, they may be shareholders, they may not be, but, but they, they sit at, In the C suite, if you will.
Um, good examples of that might be Chief Operating Officer or CFOs as an example where that comes to be. They, they are a trusted internal resource. You know, CFO, CEO relationship is, is incredibly important. And they often have the bigger picture. They, they do very much so, and you need to rely on that.
They play a big role. What I have observed, if you will, where there's been challenge at times is they're more hesitant to speak freely, if you will. Maybe we'll call that vulnerability based trust a little bit because if I'm dealing with three family members, I have a close relationship with the founder, for example, the CEO, let's assume.
but I may have a different relationship with the successors, if you will, that are evolving just because Mm-Hmm. , I don't work as closely with them if I'm in the CFO role. So they need to offer perspective, they need to be impartial. It's very difficult to do that sometimes as well, because again, relationship will connect to that as well.
Do, do I have a good relationship? Do I view that particular child or young, young individual that's moving up in the organization because they could have started with the organization when they're. 20, and now 20 years later, they're ready to take on a business. So they've known that individual for a very long time, but they may not have that same connection.
So the advice that I would always give those founders and the people around the table from an outside perspective, make sure that those individuals have a voice around the table because they're critically important for the future. Because the worst thing you could do is, well, I'll, I'll just replace them.
That can really strain the strength of the organization as well. Again, that could be a senior VP in sales or business development. How do we keep the engine running for future pipeline sales, if you will, or on the financial side?
Leah Tolton: [00:31:25] Shifting gears a little bit now to talk again about family members and, you know, people who may be participating in the the business and those who may not.
How can we ensure or how can the business ensure a fair and equitable distribution of ownership and leadership responsibilities in succession planning? I think these things kind of get tied, tangled together in people's minds. They do. And it can be hard for people to separate out. Ownership obligations and entitlements from leadership obligations and entitlements.
Maybe you could speak to that for a minute.
Mike Mack: [00:31:59] Well, the good news is it might be the toughest question you've asked so far because I see this come up often up in conversation. Our lane will play more on the leadership side relative to that capability and skill set. How can we develop someone to get to that?
That's almost easier sometimes that if someone has evolved and say they're the general manager and they're going to become the president and someone is. You know, the, the VP of business development, they could, they could take on another role because they've been in that lane beforehand. So relative to role clarity, sometimes subject to the skill set and capabilities there, that's a little easier to iron out, if you will.
The What's fair and equitable part relative to ownership and position within the organization? That one is difficult and That's where I rely on Input from dear and bright people like you, Leah, for example, because that one's that one's interesting. So a couple of examples I mean you'll see that where the founder They'll still have controlling interest for as long as they possibly can and in most cases some of their executive already have equity stake in the company, but what is fair and equitable?
And, and I've seen it work well, and I've seen it not work well as also, and can we be okay with that? You know, the, the old line that I, that I always admire is, you know, often the, the humble servant becomes king or queen and And reality in business today, that doesn't always work, is that fair and equitable.
10 percent is more than 5%, right? That's reality. 20 percent is more than 10. So I think there needs to be a bit of a formula for that, that, that's an evolution over time. And like we said earlier, the more that they talk about that in advance, the better. Because again, that founder may decide that But for safety's sake, they may still have that controlling interest for a longer period of time than they perhaps should.
Then they'll set up family trust and have professionals like you involved in that to make sure that they can have some independent decision making abilities as the case may be. But I'd actually welcome your perspective on that as well and what, what I, what you've observed in your journey, uh, professionally over the years as well.
Leah Tolton: [00:34:11] Well, I think, you know, from the legal, legal perspective, what we often see is the parents arrive to give us direction on how they would like to see What they perceive as their property divided and almost invariably they will say I want it to go equally to my kids and where we get tripped up is when we hear that well, perhaps we should alter that because One child has had a greater role in the business or they're more connected to this aspect of the family's interests And then the difficulty arises as to okay is is equal The right decision and what often happens then is that those planners can get paralyzed.
They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do other than equal and equal feels fair when they're thinking about the ownership piece. But it gets, it becomes very complicated for them to separate out those leadership pieces and those other contributions that have value. And it becomes very difficult for people to decide what might be a division that could work that is not necessarily equal that would still satisfy people.
So I see people come to this question without having done this consideration, this thoughtful process, this consultation, asking people what they think. Very often in my chair, I'm only dealing with a certain small subset of the family. I'm not dealing with everyone. And so, it's not unusual for what is generated in my office to work for the parents, but maybe nobody else who's affected by the plan.
So, to my mind, it can be really important to understand What the plan is supposed to be fair equal or otherwise and whether the people in the plan can live with the plan And I think that part gets missed and I don't think that that's always addressed in every legal discussion That families have with their advisors.
Mike Mack: [00:36:08] I love what you've stated about it. The people within the plan can live with the plan It's paying on and I mean, I guess I have some comfort in knowing that Even from your vantage point and expertise that it's not easy to, I, I agree with your comment earlier just on equal Mathematically make, you know, it's it's easy to to do that It's rarely the right thing to do more times than not because there is contribution that's been made over time to the organization where my role Is more impactful to the top line the bottom line the culture whatever that case may be then Then my brother or sister as an example in some cases And that becomes super difficult.
The sooner we can talk about that conversation, here's what I always love to believe that's possible, is, well, how do we elevate this? And how do we elevate it well in advance? So we, we can make at least that balance, or inequity, if you will, a little bit more fine, versus it being a wider gap where it's more significant.
And, and you're going to feel bad about that. And again, character is really important in this regard as well, because, I could let that power go to my head, or I could be a big brother and want to support my... My family because I'm going to be the leader and I look at it and go hey, we're all gonna win here You know, we're gonna be able to share in the future success of the organization We're gonna have meaningful careers have a legacy for our parents or whatever the case may be the organization That sounds wonderful in a perfect world it doesn't always work that way, but you hope in some cases that there are people that fundamentally think that way.
That's, that's at least the belief.
Leah Tolton: [00:37:41] What I would add to that, I think, is that particularly when people come to professional advisors, like their lawyer, like their accountant, like someone who's giving them sophisticated tax advice, they come expecting that there will be a plan that's perfect. And the plan that they work on with an advisor they think is the perfect plan.
And if they can't, if they have to consider things that, you know, perhaps get into more of the, the emotional side of things that maybe they're less comfortable, uh, with examining, then that then gets in the way of, you know, putting in place the perfect plan. And sometimes perfection is the enemy of the good.
And, and when we're talking about, a process that really requires an investment of time and an investment of effort. I don't think that the result, you know, as I said earlier, this isn't an event, it's a process. And so because it's a process, it can be re examined, it can be evaluated, it can be adjusted, it can be changed.
It doesn't have to be perfect right now. It can work the way we mostly want it, as you say, right now. And as things evolve or change or people grow or evolve, then we can change it. But it doesn't have to be perfect right now, and it doesn't have to be perfect for all time.
Mike Mack: [00:38:55] Yeah, I love it. Two quick comments on that one, uh, that I learned years ago, progress, not perfection.
So, echoes exactly what you said. I think the other aspect that, we go back to that discovery process, and where it starts, and when it gets a little closer, and let's say it's, it's built, but it's not perfect, at least in the eyes of some people, you know, co designing that, that's kind of a terminology, co designing it where, If we were gonna build a house together, or we're gonna build a new shop for our business, hey, we, we should look at this.
We'd collaborate. We'd have somebody come in and offer perspective and what do you want? What do you want? So to build that out, to know where that can be. Sadly, from my vantage point, rarely, this might sound silly to say it, but rarely is it just about the business. It's about all those other. Issues that create more problems.
Hey, we're building widgets. Oh yeah, we're going to continue to build widgets. We just want to make money doing that. I want to make sure I get my share. So, if we really can focus on the house, the business house for sure, there's an opportunity for everybody to be, you know, wealthy, if you will, relative to some very strong organizations that you and I have had the privilege of working with over time.
The money available is not the issue. It's, you know, making sure you're getting your fair share. How do you serve the best interest, not only of the organization, but what about all those legacy employees that have been around for 20 or 30 years and have a desire to, in some cases, bring their Family into the business as well because they love the organization.
They love the founders and that's incredibly Gratifying to see that unfold over time if you will it does it does occur It doesn't occur as often as it should in most cases.
Leah Tolton: [00:40:35] So Mike last question to you. What are the three top recommendations that you would make to family enterprises Well,
Mike Mack: [00:40:46] I'll echo what I said earlier again.
I think the number one aspect is plan early, communicate often. That, that, that's one statement. Okay, we're going to start talking about this now, but it's way too early. So do it when you don't think you need to do it. That's the most important. And there's way less stress involved because, oh, that's five years away.
It could be even 10 years away. So start that. I think the other aspect that particularly on where we're involved professionally is that. The evolution of those leaders over time, regardless of their experience and age, as an example, if somebody's been in the business for 10 years, kind of look at that leadership development as well.
You know, something that I take pride in is if individuals can play in their unique ability, they love it and they're really good at it. We want to be able to do that. Not everybody is destined to be the president. Not everybody is destined to be the CFO. Now, certain roles, by qualification, you might need some credentials, you know, CFO is a good example, but just because you've been here 20 years doesn't mean you are the best, most fit individual.
So leadership development is incredibly important as well. You know, having them evolve over time, and I have the privilege of working with a lot of senior executives that are of relative age and well into their 60s and 70s that are We're incredibly open to professional development, so making sure that that, that's the case.
I think the other aspect is, is making sure that, that we have willing participants around the table. So if I go back to plan, I go back to that, that discovery, you know, focus on the prize. What's that future reality? But what are we willing to do? I'll give you a quick example. I've seen this in some cases where Well, Leah, you'll, you'll probably take on that division at some point in time, but the reality is you don't really know what that entails.
You don't know what's required, what skill set is there. So plan and communicate, elevating the leadership development, but getting insight from all of the participants around the table are incredibly important because we, we may be able to not make this go in the direction that we want. We may need to bring somebody else outside to go.
We're at an impasse here. I want to sell, I don't want to do any work, I just want to golf all the time, whatever the case may be. So that's really where it starts. Maybe a bonus fourth I'd bring in is, start early from an outside perspective is, is seek, seek input. But again, that could be other businesses that have been there, done that successfully as well.
You know, the pride that we have in living in Edmonton is, there's a lot of great organizations that, that have been successful, we've seen it. We could name five of them, probably the same names that you would mention, have a conversation, have a lunch, have a dinner with them to get perspective. They'll arguably probably give you a similar list, and they'd probably give you a more expanded list as well.
Leah Tolton: [00:43:32] Great. Mike, always a delight to talk to you. So appreciate you taking the time to appear on the podcast today. Thank you.
Mike Mack: [00:43:38] My absolute pleasure. I, uh, as you well know, I've had the privilege of knowing you for many years and hold you in very high regard in my life as well, professionally. And if, if there was businesses out there that I said, Hey, here's one person that you should talk to, that would be you as well.
And again, real, uh, real pleasure to be part of this today. And hope in a small way that our conversation today adds some value out there to just some great family businesses in our marketplace.
Leah Tolton: [00:44:02] I hope so too. Thanks again. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Beyond Succession, a series within the Bennett Jones Business Law Talks podcast.
Make sure to hit the follow button on whatever platform you are listening from so you get notified whenever we release new episodes. Also, don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions about challenges or issues that you are facing in your family enterprise. Take care. I'll catch you in our next episode.
Please note that this publication presents an overview of notable legal trends and related updates. It is intended for informational purposes and not as a replacement for detailed legal advice. If you need guidance tailored to your specific circumstances, please contact one of the authors to explore how we can help you navigate your legal needs.
For permission to republish this or any other publication, contact Amrita Kochhar at kochhara@bennettjones.com.
Bennett Jones